Episode 76: Early Life, Impact of IIM, Is success an outcome of Brilliance or Network? How to make career decisions? How to build teams? Best leadership advice w/Dhruvank Vaidya
About Dhruvank Vidya:
Dhruvank is the Head of Podcasts for Spotify India. Over a career spanning 25 years, he has launched several media and technology businesses and held leadership positions (CxO/ Business head) in digital media, content, television and technology companies like Star TV, Times of India group, NDTV Imagine/ Turner Broadcasting etc.
In his entrepreneurial stint, Dhruvank co-founded ‘The Adaptation Company’-- a content company focused on book-to-film/TV adaptations.
During our conversation, Dhruvank delves into key topics that shed light on his unique perspective. Drawing from his experiences, he shares valuable insights on decision-making, career choices, good workplace relationships, and effective team-building. Furthermore, Dhruvank emphasises the significance of grit, the balance between being a generalist and a specialist, and the power of a clear vision in leadership.
Dhruvank’s expertise and passion for media and technology make this episode a must-listen for aspiring entrepreneurs, professionals, and anyone looking to gain valuable insights into these dynamic industries.
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Key takeaways:
It is important to recognise the significance of fostering positive workplace relationships throughout the career journey, as connections made with colleagues and acquaintances can have lasting implications. By prioritising integrity, fairness, and straightforwardness in interactions, leaders can leave lasting impressions on others, which can contribute to a strong professional reputation.
The suitability of the generalist or the specialist approach in one’s career depends on an individual’s preference. It is essential to figure out which approach suits one best, at the earliest, for a fulfilling career.
Contrary to conventional thinking, to create something scalable, entrepreneurs must engage in activities that are not easily replicable. This involves assessing potential locations, observing customer experiences, and solving specific challenges. By immersing oneself in these non-scalable tasks at the early stages, entrepreneurs gain valuable insights and develop a deep understanding of the business's intricacies, which then enables them to deploy scalable methods and effectively expand the business on a larger scale.
Keeping ego low in the business allows one to connect with people at their level, fostering open communication and genuine feedback. Approachability and humility enable others to feel comfortable sharing their thoughts and insights, providing valuable information for addressing business challenges and making informed decisions.
Without a defined vision, team members lack direction and struggle to align their efforts. By offering a compelling vision, leaders can inspire and motivate their team, enabling everyone to work cohesively towards a common goal.
Dhruvank’s productivity tools:
Focus on a few things for a day, week, or month, as narrowing down the areas of focus can help individuals effectively manage their time.
Application of the Pareto principle to assess tasks and determine the impact they will have.
Planning the week ahead in the calendar to ensure that sufficient time is allocated to each task, reducing chances of over-commitment.
In this conversation, he talks about:
00:00 Intro
01:53 How was life growing up?
02:40 What is the journey to becoming the head of the podcast at Spotify India?
04:47 What made you join Spotify?
05:57 What did your parents expect you to be?
06:44 What influence does IIM have in your life?
07:44 Do you attribute your success to your brilliance or your network?
08:52 Decision Making: You kicked off your career as a manufacturing consultant and moved into media, which is a significant jump- How do you reflect on it and study your decision-making?
10:26 What is your view on being a generalist Vs specialist?
13:11 You have been an entrepreneur and launched new businesses for MNCs. What is your counterintuitive insight about building a business?
14:31 What is the role of Ego in one's career?
15:23 Team Building: You have played a lot of team sports. What do you think about building a team?
17:06 What is your superpower?
18:07 What is the best leadership advice you have ever received?
19:13 Who is Dhruvank in a stressful environment?
19:57 What are your three productivity hacks?
20:50 Books, coffee and your walks- What is your relationship with books? And your passion for coffee? And your walks?
18:07 One advice that you would give to yourself?
24:31 If you had to work with one of these people, who would you choose, someone with grit or brilliance?
Transcript:
Pritish: Welcome Dhruvank to The One Percent Project.
Dhruvank: Hey, Pritish. Thank you. Good to be here.
Pritish: So, how was it growing up, and what is your most vivid childhood memory?
Dhruvank: I grew up in Andheri, and we used to live in an apartment complex that had a big ground. There were three buildings, and between that, there were about 40 kids my age. So, growing up in Andheri, I remember always going down to play. We played mostly team sports because there were too many people to play individually. So, it was cricket, football, and field hockey for a certain time at night before the ground became too bad and the ball kept bouncing weirdly. We played volleyball a lot. So, as you come back from school, you go down to play in the evening, and on weekends, you play most of the day; on summer holidays, you play throughout the day. So yeah, it was great. It was great growing up.
Pritish: So, from there, what’s the journey to becoming the head of podcasts at Spotify, India?
Dhruvank: The journey has been one step at a time. When I was in school growing up, I was, it was always like, what to do next, right? At that time, the options were to study medicine, engineering, and I picked engineering. I studied at Bombay University, did my electronics engineering there, and at that point, I knew I didn't want to do software, so I didn't take the campus placements that were coming up; sorry, the software companies that were coming on campus. But I got into Accenture at that time from campus. So, I joined their consulting business and was there for three years. Then I did my MBA and went again for another year to Accenture before I went to Deloitte in the U.S. I spent about four years there and did a lot of work with media companies, and that was the time when a lot of technology changes were happening. Broadband was coming into play. D S L was big. Wireless broadband was also on the ambit. So, a lot of content started getting delivered on your TV at that time and your laptops and computers. That was the time I figured that, look, there is so much change that technology can bring into the media. With every new change in technology, business models change, how you approach customers changes, and content and formats change. So that's when I said that look media is where I would like to make my career. So, I came back to India in 2004 and joined the STAR team. So that's where the media journey started. I've been in television with STAR and NDTV Imagine. Then became an entrepreneur, had a few startup stints, worked in digital media, and before joining Spotify, I was with the Times of India group. It's one step at a time, not looking too far ahead.
Pritish: Let me digress and ask, what did your parents expect you to be?
Dhruvank: I think my parents’ expectation was that I study well and get good marks when I was in school. After that, they did not put any pressure or expectations on me. I was putting that expectation on myself that, okay, now this is what I want to do. I remember that I made several attempts to clear my CAT, the MBA entrance exam, and my dad was like, why don't you apply for the other entrance exams and get in? And I was like, no, I want to go here, and I will try again. Eventually, I got it. So, from their point of view, there was no pressure. It was always me setting a goal for myself and then trying to achieve that.
Pritish: What influence does IIM hold in your life?
Dhruvank: I've made amazing friends at IIM because this was the first time I was staying in a hostel. So, you're staying with people from all over India who are the brightest minds in the country. I've made many friends. It was also a humbling experience because when you're in your own school or in your college, you think that you're graduating at the top of your class or you're doing well in your studies. But when you go to the IIM and meet your batchmates, you see that everyone has stopped their classes. But then there is someone who can sing, who plays state-level sports, and who can dance well as well, in addition to doing everything in studies. So, it is such a phenomenally humbling experience to actually meet people who are much more accomplished than you, who have seen and done a lot in their lives, and you get to hang out with them.
Pritish: Is your success an aspect of your brilliance or your network?
Dhruvank: I think there is nothing called success. I mean, it is a career journey. And as part of the journey, what one tries to do is A learn and B, make friends and have good relationships when you are going through the journey, because your jobs may change, but the people you know and the people you work with will continue to remember you, either they'll have a good memory about you or a bad memory. So, my attempt has always been to leave a good impression. I'm sure there are a few people who have a bad memory of me. Wherever you interact with people, you try to be fair, be straightforward, and yeah, that's what it has been. And at the same time, try to learn something for yourself and see how you can apply it during that time or maybe later in other jobs. So that's how I have seen my career. And then one thing has just led to the other.
Pritish: Let's talk about career decisions—or rather, decision-making. I don't know if you studied it or not, or you observe what has worked out and what not because you went from manufacturing, you started off as a manufacturing consultant, as you mentioned, and then you went into media. Those are quite significant jobs, and how do you reflect back on them, and do you study decision-making or choices that you've made?
Dhruvank: Yes. So, these choices have been conscious. While one can say, it's serendipity and luck, and that does have a big role. But when you start exploring your next move, you have to pick a direction, and that has to be conscious. The way I have examined my positions is that when learning stops, then you know that it's time to move. Then when you're deciding where to move next. I look at where growth is happening. If there is high growth in a particular sector or a segment, then there will be a lot of new opportunities. If it's a very new sector, then you will need to gain prior experience in it, so then you are on the same level playing field as others. They will want people from other industries. And, of course, if the industry is growing rapidly, then in terms of compensation, etc, everything else also comes with it. Plus, there is phenomenal learning, and I have found that I work best when I am able to bring to bear multiple fields rather than deep expertise in just one area. So that works great for me. These are some of the factors I keep in mind when deciding my next move.
Pritish: What is your view on being a generalist versus a specialist?
Dhruvank: So, there are people who are either generalists or specialists, but the most important thing is for one to recognise what you are. It is because if you are a generalist and you try to specialise in one thing and keep at it, then you may not be happy in there longer. Whereas as soon as you start doing across, operating across multiple areas, you may find yourself being much more impactful. Both approaches work great, but they work at different stages in a company's life cycle; they vary by individual. The sooner you're able to figure out what approach works best for you, in terms of your career, it's you'll have a much more satisfying career.
Pritish: Recently, I had somebody from IDEO, and he said that IDEO plans to or tries to hire people who are T-shaped. They have broad experience, a generalist, but they have one specific domain of expertise. And they believe that design people should have T-shaped experience rather than being a generalist or specialist because they need to bring together a number of different disciplines to eventually build a final product that they will bring to the market.
Dhruvank: Absolutely, that makes much sense because you need to know engineering, you need to know thermodynamics, you also need to know aesthetics, design, you need to know physics. The other day, my son and I were talking about how to make a scarecrow. We have a few potted plants outside our window, and we have a lot of birds coming there. So, he said, Papa, I want to make a scarecrow, and I will put a motor and a rotor here, and I'll put it all together, and then the scarecrow will come. I said, why don't you draw it first? So, he drew us, and then he drew us a circuit, etc. And then we started asking, okay, so now you have this tall stick, and you said they'll have paper wings, and it’ll look like a bird. But what about the breeze? When there is a lot of wind, the scarecrow will fall because it's not anchored on something. How will you anchor it to the base? Because if it is not anchored, it can fall off. That paper might tear. What kind of look will it have so the bird will get scared? Do you really need a motor, or can you do without it? How can you simplify it? All these aspects come into play when you're designing something new. And similarly, when you're launching a new business, you need to be aware of so many factors which, otherwise, one person need not know. It is a lot of cross-learning.
Pritish: You have been an entrepreneur; you have launched new businesses. What is the counter-intuitive insight about building a business?
Dhruvank: So, this is, I heard it on a podcast with Brian Chesky, but he says that to build something scalable, you have to start doing non-scalable things. When you start doing non-scalable things, you put things together where you, let's say if you have to find a new location to launch a business, you have to go there, look at the site, examine it, how people are coming into your outlet, what are they experiencing inside, etc. So, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of observation, it's a lot of non-scalable, but unless you don't see this yourself unless you don't solve for, unless you don't observe each and every aspect of this, you will not be able to deploy scalable methods, then scale it at a much wider level. That is very critical, especially at the initial stages of our business. Whether you are looking to create content to acquire listeners or customers, the initial non-scalable part is very important.
Pritish: What role does ego play in one’s success?
Dhruvank: I think ego almost always comes in the way because if you're in a new business, if you're in any business, I think what is most important is for you to know that you can't accomplish anything without your team. You will not know everything there is to know in the world. So, you have to keep learning. You have to keep listening, and for that, you have to keep your ego very low because only then will you be able to connect with people at their level. Only then will people feel free enough to talk to you because many times, if you're not approachable, people really don't want to share what they're really thinking, and that hampers you because you are not getting the true feedback that you should be getting about a situation about a person or a business problem.
Pritish: Do you think people like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Kunal Shah, do they have an ego? And if they didn’t have an ego, would they be able to build what they are building?
Dhruvank: I think there are multiple models to build businesses. Basically, look at the Tatas. They're also a great example of how businesses are built, like Azim Premji or the Infosys founders. So, there are many models to build businesses. One needs to figure out what works best for one’s personality.
Pritish: Team building, and you have played a lot of deep sports. What do you think about building a team?
Dhruvank: Building teams is one of the hardest because if a team is working well, then yes. Things will go well. If not, then you have lots of problems because you'll be solving clashes and managing egos there. What is important for the team to work together is that no team member feels threatened by each other. So, that is very important. Second, the team should know that you are working for their benefit and that you yourself are not indulging in politics. You're not playing one team member against the other or just being secretive with a few and being more open with others; it is important that you're very transparent in communication with the team. You set a very clear direction, and then you live up to it. You're following that. Yes, it's okay to change direction, but then again, it's important to communicate why you are changing direction. Because so long as people know why you're changing direction, it's great. They also understand. But if you are not communicating and you unilaterally change things, then the team is also confused because while you are trying to gauge what your teams are thinking, the team is also trying to gauge what their boss is thinking. And it's important that there is very transparent communication on both sides. And the team should know that you have their back. And that only comes when you act in situations where they're in trouble, and you are able to stand up for them. So, these things are important.
Pritish: What is your superpower?
Dhruvank: I don't think I have superpowers, and I really don't believe in that. It’s more about doing something and doing something consistent. I have changed many roles. I've gone into new industries, and that has helped me a lot in first principles thinking. As soon as you're in a new situation, you try and get as much information about it as possible and then boil it down to first principles and say, okay, how is this going to work? Use some comparables either from other industries that you worked with or through some reading that you may have done, and then say, look, okay, this is the mental model that I have formed. Now let's go and approach it in this manner. First-principles thinking is what has worked for me most of the time. Just keep being curious, gathering as much information about the situation as possible, and be open to changing your mind or be open to being proven wrong.
Pritish: Best leadership advice you've ever got?
Dhruvank: My wife runs a media platform called India Development Review. It is focused on the social sector, and I've seen this company grow up from scratch where she started. And how she has approached her business is a great learning for me because of how she's put together the teams, how the teams interact with each other, and how they treat each other as equals, even if there is a 20-year age difference. Some of those learnings have been very helpful. So that is one big influence on how I approach teams and leadership. The other thing I understand now is that to be a leader; you need to give vision to your team. The vision is very important because there is a team to execute, but if you are not able to provide them with the vision, then they don't know in what direction to go. So, vision is very important if you want to extract the best out of it and have everyone work in the same way.
Pritish: Who is Dhruvank in a stressful environment?
Dhruvank: I am very quiet. I introspect a lot when I am under stress, but I will still try and find a way out. I'll find a person whom I can talk to that can help me in this situation. Usually, when there is stress, it means that you're put in a situation where you've not been before. So typically, it's always a different person that you have to reach out. Being quiet, keeping to oneself, and not talking are things that my wife has also pointed out. Why don't you share more? And I'm like, dude, leave me alone for now. So yeah, that happens.
Pritish: What are your three productivity hacks or tools?
Dhruvank: Productivity hacks. Focusing on a few things is most important, even if you decide to focus for the month, week, or day; it really helps you prioritise your time. Doing the Pareto principle is also very important. As you look at everything that you have in hand, and then you say, okay, how much impact will my time create for every task? And then you decide that, look, where can I create maximum impact? That is most important. And then, you plan your week on the calendar rather than a to-do list because once you will start allocating time for things and then you make space for them. Otherwise, it takes a lot of work to do it on a linear basis, and at the end of the evening, you figure that, oh, you need more time for it.
Pritish: Books, coffee, and your walks. What's your relationship with books?
Dhruvank: Books are a very dear friend. Books open doors for me that, usually, otherwise, I would have no way of getting into. So, these days I read a lot of history and books are amazing. And, of course, I read fiction as well, so it's not just nonfiction. I read fiction as well. But history is something that I've started to like a lot. So, authors like William , and Manu Pillai, are the ones who come to mind. Recently I read a book called Murder at the Mushaira, which was set in 1847, India, in Delhi. And there is a murder on the anvil of the first Indian revolution. And Mirza Ghalib is the detective who solves the mystery, like a historical setting and using figures who existed at that time, but a fiction story, quite eclectic.
Pritish: And where did your passion for coffee start? How is it connected to you?
Dhruvank: The passion started over ten years back. I've been drinking coffee for a really long time. Earlier, it was more like flavoured milk with sugar. I just put coffee to change colour. But about 10 years back, I started to figure out, look, I like to drink coffee, but whenever I used to make coffee, the taste was always inconsistent. So, I joined one workshop where they taught you to make different kinds of coffee. I got to understand a little bit of the chemistry of coffee making and how much to brew, etc. I know a little, but I know enough to make a good cup of coffee for myself. And I've been starting my day with coffee. It's usually black with a little bit of milk and no sugar. Well, it's a good start to the morning, and I still read newspapers. So, you sit on a chair, have a cup of coffee, read newspapers, and then the rest of the day can begin.
Pritish: And what about your walks?
Dhruvank: Yeah. So, it started, some six, seven years back when my son started going for athletic sports. We used to be on the ground by 4:30 in the morning. We used to wake up much earlier than that, and once he started his workouts, I used to go to the beach and walk, and it was about an hour’s walk and early morning on the beach; that was the time I thought that look, I need to have something accompanying me otherwise, too early in the morning because I'm not a morning person naturally. So that's when I started listening to podcasts, and that's how I got into the habit of listening to podcasts because it was like walking used to happen every day. And hence podcast listening also happened every day, at least for an hour. Yeah, I've really fond memories of it.
Pritish: Coming to podcasts, other than the fact that Spotify is an amazing organisation to be a part of, what made you join it?
Dhruvank: So, when the podcast opportunity came by, I started looking at it and examining it in more detail. Some of the things really fell in place for me were one, that it was a storytelling format. It was a format that was emerging and on the verge of inflection. So, it was not something totally new. It had worked, and it had started to build an audience, and there were enough proof points about that, and with Spotify in India, I got an opportunity to build the business in India. Given India's language complexity, the kind of content formats that we already have. It would be a great opportunity to build a podcast business here. That was my primary thing. And, of course, Spotify is a great place to work, so I said, yeah, although I don't have any prior experience in audio or in podcasts, let's give it a shot. Here I am.
Pritish: One piece of advice that you would give to your younger self.
Dhruvank: Take more risks. I was too risk-averse earlier. Even today, you would not call me risk-friendly; take more risks. Be more open to experimenting. Put yourselves in situations where you get new experiences because that's where you learn, and that's where solid learning happens. Because on a linear path, which you'll tread every day, you only learn a few new things. So, taking risks is as important for learning as well. Yeah, that would definitely be one thing.
Pritish: Do you think your son is going to have a stable career path, which is mostly linear or with a few transitions as you have had?
Dhruvank: I have two boys. The older one is in 10th, and the younger one is in 6th. The older one right now wants to do product design, and actually, both of them like to do art. They're good at it. They’ll have much more varied career trajectories than I have had. It's also about the state of times today because you have many more career options, and kids today have access to so much more information and technology tools to do stuff, find their way, and make money out of it. So yeah, I'm hoping that they will have a much more varied career path.
Pritish: Before we close, if you have to choose to work with one of these people, who would you choose? Someone with high grid grit or brilliance?
Dhruvank: Grit, definitely.
Pritish: Why is that?
Dhruvank: You don't know what the environment will throw at you, right? And because of grit, you are saying that, look, whatever comes, I will figure it out and find my way through. Then you take energy from your surroundings, people you interact with, and other people outside of you. At the same time, brilliance looks inside and tries to see what I can do and how I can solve this. And why have I yet to be able to solve this? So yeah, definitely grit.
Pritish: Brilliant. Dhruvank, that's a great place to close the conversation. Thanks for being on the show.
Dhruvank: Super. Thanks a lot, Pritish. Great having this chat, and I will talk to you soon.
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